IMO the biggest incentive of all is that the battery exists for the life of the vehicle and can be recycled at the end (the lithium inside does not disappear!), vs the gas which is literally burning money away.
They are getting a lot cheaper overall. The EV Bolt is less than $4k more than a Camry. In expensive places like California, or with gas as high as it is, you can quickly make back that additional cost and get ahead over time, especially if you are able to charge from home. And TBH the Bolt isn’t that bad of a car, and get’s great distance per charge.
That and there’s only so much gas, once we burn it all up it’ll take millions of years to replenish. Yea, you could say the same about battery materials, but those get reused for what a decade before they start to degrade? And the actual energy is free once we have the means to harvest it (wind, solar etc are all “free” infinite energy so long as we have the panels and turbines)
I have heard that! But it’s on the consumers to ensure they get the old packs to a place that can recycle them. Just like with existing car parts I imagine the suppliers could put a big core charge on replacement battery packs to ensure the old ones are returned for remanufacture.
I don’t think that’s even a concern. Current cars are already one of the most recycled products and that has barely anything to do with customers. There has to be incentive for the “final purchaser”, the junker
That and there’s only so much gas, once we burn it all up it’ll take millions of years to replenish.
Umm, AFAIK, we actually can’t make more oil, so there isn’t going to be any more gas, just work harder to find what’s left. We absolutely should be moving to alternative energies to power civilization.
When I say millions of years I mean the plankton and our decomposing bodies will eventually make some oil, but by then our planet will be gone anyways lol. I’m sure human civilization won’t make it to see any more oil produced
Pretty sure the conditions on the planet when oil/coal formed were substantially different from today. In particular, there are now various organisms which feed on the decaying matter that’s at the start of that process. These organisms eat that matter and emit CO2 as they live and breathe, returning the carbon to the air instead of burying underground.
Socialize losses, privatize gains. I don’t want my tax money incentivizing some rich asshole to buy an EV. Nobody that needs help buying a car can even consider an EV, their too expensive. The cheapest ev u can buy in USA is 30k, the cheapest ICE is 22k. And people that need help buying cars can’t afford either. Only middle class + people are buying these things, and they don’t need poor people’s tax money to subsidize their purchase from a private corp. I’m all for evs but let’s be honest the people buying them DONT need help buying them. Id rather see my tax money go toward renewable infrastructure or research on batteries and such! We can’t keep relying on the private industry to fund research, in technology or in medicine or any science imo. But that’s just my angry fist wagging opinion as somebody who refuses to spend more than 3k on a car because I’m not made of money. I’m not exactly poor, I’m a home owner under 30 and make around 60-70k a year depending on OT and bonuses. But if I went and got a loan on a Chevy bolt for 30k I would not be able to make my mortgage payments even with subsidies, so why should somebody who makes more get help buying a new car? Horseshit
There’s more reason to incentives than to “help people who can’t afford new”
the faster we develop an EV market, the sooner and cheaper used EVs will be available
the incentives get us to price parity sooner, so encourage people who don’t want to spend extra, whether they can or not
the faster market transition encourages investment in chargers. If you couldn’t be confident in a fast growing market why would you invest in chargers?
the faster market transition encourages and supports legacy manufacturers investing in new technology
EVs are inevitable, but we need to be encouraging a faster transition for environmental reasons. But the incentives were at least as much about trying to save legacy manufacturers as they were about encouraging consumers down that path.
Note that as soon as the US stopped incentives, legacy manufacturers withdrew from the EV market. Some were just reaching price parity, such as Chevy Equinox, but the few remaining choices will never have the volume to be profitable. Now they’re heavily protected, at the cost of less choice and much higher prices for all Americans, but that can’t last forever and they appear to be digging their own graves
While I agree with you, roll back of regulations has also contributed. For example the hemi was going to get killed but now their coming back, diesel emissions have lightened up, and epa no longer cares about the Greenhouse Gas Endangerment Finding and repealed it. There has been a LOT of factors this administration has changed that made EV less appealing and shifted us back to high pollution combustion and shitty refrigerants. I’m not convinced ev subsidies are the way forward, we need better renewable infrastructure to properly fuel our EVs and i think that should be funded by our tax dollars rather than hoping that if more people have evs more private corps will build the infrastructure for it. That’s like encouraging building trains without any tracks to ride on! Plus renewable infrastructure isn’t just for evs, that will help make all our homes greener too!
For sure, we can no longer afford the affects of our current technology and scale on the environment, especially with regard to climate change and where it impacts human health. EVs aren’t a goal in their own right, but as a much cleaner technology that lessens the impact, and we need a variety of pushes and pulls to encourage a faster transition, all of which the current administration is taking away.
While yes we need to build out infrastructure, and yes we would have preferred legacy manufacturers to survive the change, building out supply before there is demand doesn’t always work dry well. Using EV incentives help grow the market, drive demand, especially in the beginning where there is inadequate infrastructure and where manufacturers are not yet able to create comparable prices. It’s another lever to pull, and is important. Hopefully we had them long enough, but growth clearly stalled when they were prematurely ended
And yes, in my part of the US, windfarms killed by trump were important both to lower electricity costs and to clean up our impact.
This isn’t exactly correct or truthful. A new EV Bolt is only $4k more than a new Camry, and that difference is quickly made up from the gas saving, especially when gas is $4+ a gallon.
A comparison of subsidized oil would better be served by having the government subsidize clean energy production and infrastructure. It’s not like the government is handing out subsidies to buy gas cars 🤷♂️
The government is doing that already (IRA law, although a lot of that was pulled back by the current administration). And like oil had, you would need continuous investment, which hasn’t happened, so a discounting program to incentivize purchasing seems like the best of both worlds. It seemed pretty effective as well at kicking off early adoption, which was then hampered by inflation, high prices, and government divesting from EV investment.
They have the money to buy an EV, rich people don’t need my tax money to subsidize their purchase. If the EV is that much less appealing than an ice car, then the EV is not ready for market yet! Subsidizing their purchase of a quasi luxury barge that happens to be electric is just giving money to the elite class on both ends at the expense of the proletariat. Encourage the production of affordable, cheap even EVs and infrastructure not 50k+ leather wrapped battery packs on tires lol
“rich people” in your mind is who, exactly? Here in Canada only cars below a certain MSRP qualify for subsidies, so “luxury barges” are not subsidized. Also, a $50K car is not luxury anymore, have you seen car prices recently? New ICE cars are expensive as hell too!
I’m talking about people making into the 6 figures, they don’t need help from subsidies to buy cars. That’s just giving well to do people money to give to rich corpos 🤷♂️ but ur absolutely right all new cars are getting too damned expensive!
Depends where you live, 6 figures is the minimum in some places for single income earners let alone households. For example im working for a company that has a lot going on in Boston, the only way the math maths for me to live there, within 30 minutes commute is about 200k a year, budgeting about $600 a month for a car payment. And about 5-6k in mortgage. Plus utilities are insane so there goes another 500-600 a month. (Probably depends a bit on neighborhood, but thats what some of my coworkers were complaiming about) and food is about 50-60% more expensive my spouse covers that so not sure the cost, id guess for the 3 of us round about another 600-700 in groceries plus say another 200 or so for eating out, so yeah… 6 figures doesnt mean much in terms of real purchasing power the rest going into repairs for cars, home stuff thats inevitably broken in those 70+ yr old houses selling for over a mil. Thats the napkin math, exact math, and budgeting for things like PCs, savings, etc… not included.
But point being 6 figures doesnt mean well off depending on where that 6 figures is being made. Sure id live like a walking middle age crisis on 100K in the middle of nowhere, but middle of nowhere isnt going to be offering 100k
They do if you want to accelerate adoption. People who can afford to pay more have the same disincentives as you do. Why should they pay more? We know EVs are a huge improvement and worth it when the climate is considered, so need to encourage faster adoption.
Think of it more as exploiting them. Pay a little money for some rich assholeto spend more establishing the market for you. The biggest impediment to lower cost is scale: as long as legacy manufacturers can’t scale production they can’t lower prices enough to establish the market. Incentives are the way out
That’s still 4 times more than I have spent on my last 12 cars with exception of one crazy nice Audi I had that ran me 7500 lol. And I regret spending that much on a car, despite loving the 400hp fire breathing V8 under the hood. I honestly mainly drive motorcycles, which has been the cheapest way for me to reduce my carbon footprint. I get over 50 mpg on my cruiser and near 80 on my dual sport, and both my motorcycles + my Subaru + my jeep all cost less than one POS chevy bolt LOL. I understand I’m a special case because I work on my vehicles so it’s very cheap for me to own a beater, if I didnt have the ability to make all my own repairs and have shop cost on parts and stuff i might consider an EV more strongly but its just way too expensive for now even factoring in what i spend on fuel and repairs.
Seems like EV incentives would be a great help for a purchaser like you. As long as EVs are a niche product for the motivated few, there won’t be much of as used market. The fastest way to develop a healthy used market is higher growth for new cars, then wait a few years. Incentives goose the market for new, but also lay the groundwork for a larger used car market in a few years
Our tax money goes toward an almost infinite number of places and no one agrees with all of them, but speeding up the transition to a modern economy based on renewable energy, bringing both existing companies and customers along, should be a positive thing for most people.
For me, it’s right up there with feeding the starving, reducing poverty, public health, intervening in medical disasters, maintaining a solid safety net for all citizens
Where the heck do you live where you can get a car for 3-4k? Last car I bought was 10k for 130,000 miles on it and the one car I saw for 5k was high mileage, absolutely disgusting on the inside, and false advertised to the point that I could not trust it didn’t have major issues.
If you want a good car under 3 grand it takes elbow grease. My current Subaru I bought for 3k, I used the proceeds from my previous vehicle to purchase. My previous vehicle was a 800$ Xterra, blown radiator but ran. Did water pump, timing belt, radiator, thermostat, valve cover gaskets and a set of tires + ac high pressure line. That was just under a grand, so into for 1800ish and sold for 2800. Before that I had a e36 that I bought for 2500 bucks needed cooling system work as well, put like 600 bucks of parts in it and beat the fucking brakes off it clutch kicking and drifting all over creation from 140k -> 200k miles and sold for 2500. My 87 jeep was 1500 bucks with a cracked head on a 4.2 carbed amc engine because somebody left water in it over winter, 3 speed automatic. Got a 70k miles engine, 5 speed manual and transfer case out of an 02 for 800 bucks (pulled myself out of a rotted tj, brought over the PCM and wiring harness as well and merged harnesses) and stabbed that in. Had to fabricate my own transmission mount and skid plate for it and after a set of used 33s, winch, etc I’m into it for about 4k. All of these vehicles have been rot free, and purchased all in New England! If you ever want tips on finding a good cheap vehicle, and tips on how to make repairs feel free to reach out. Shits too expensive to gate keep knowledge these days, and the only way to cheap transport is to buy broken and put some sweat equity in. Of course I enjoy this shit so it’s easier for me to spend weekends bruising knuckles and hanging parts than somebody doing purely out of necessity! I have owned 6 motorcycles, only one of them cost me more than 1k. All were purchased as heaps and revived then sold for a mint. If your able bodied and broke you have nothing but opportunity just gotta dial a skill in and get after it!
I work on my own vehicles as well. I’m looking forward to my first oil change at 100k miles, lol. With gas at $4/gal and paying 14.48¢/kWh, I’m getting 107 mpg equivalent dollar for dollar not even hyper-mileing. As far as long term costs go, I’m expecting to get 250k miles out of my batteries and if the Bolt doesn’t last that long, I’ll repurpose the batteries into a whole home battery backup. Even then, if there’s a battery swap that becomes available to her a faster fast charge, I may turn my bolt’s battery pack into a home battery pack sooner. I’d much rather reuse what I got than recycle
Have you never heard of financing? I make $50,000 a year and bought a used EV. The only reason I was able to was because of rebates offered by IL-EPA. If not for the rebate, I’d still be driving an ICE vehicle and paying $50/wk on gasoline.
I have heard of financing. My buddy is currently on his way to paying 32k for a 15k car lmfao. The bank already owns my house, they don’t need to own my transportation too. I spend 40 or so a week on gas during the winter, but in the summer I ride motorcycles every day so my fuel cost is 12-20 a week for 8 or so months of the year! No car payment is going to be cheaper than the transport I own cash right now, simple as that. I have too many bills and shits too expensive to incur another monthly payment!
oh wow I didn’t know that!
would make sense to give more a lot incentives for EV buying if so!
I wish they weren’t so expensive though.
IMO the biggest incentive of all is that the battery exists for the life of the vehicle and can be recycled at the end (the lithium inside does not disappear!), vs the gas which is literally burning money away.
They are getting a lot cheaper overall. The EV Bolt is less than $4k more than a Camry. In expensive places like California, or with gas as high as it is, you can quickly make back that additional cost and get ahead over time, especially if you are able to charge from home. And TBH the Bolt isn’t that bad of a car, and get’s great distance per charge.
That and there’s only so much gas, once we burn it all up it’ll take millions of years to replenish. Yea, you could say the same about battery materials, but those get reused for what a decade before they start to degrade? And the actual energy is free once we have the means to harvest it (wind, solar etc are all “free” infinite energy so long as we have the panels and turbines)
Isn’t lithium infinitely recyclable?
I have heard that! But it’s on the consumers to ensure they get the old packs to a place that can recycle them. Just like with existing car parts I imagine the suppliers could put a big core charge on replacement battery packs to ensure the old ones are returned for remanufacture.
I don’t think that’s even a concern. Current cars are already one of the most recycled products and that has barely anything to do with customers. There has to be incentive for the “final purchaser”, the junker
Umm, AFAIK, we actually can’t make more oil, so there isn’t going to be any more gas, just work harder to find what’s left. We absolutely should be moving to alternative energies to power civilization.
When I say millions of years I mean the plankton and our decomposing bodies will eventually make some oil, but by then our planet will be gone anyways lol. I’m sure human civilization won’t make it to see any more oil produced
Pretty sure the conditions on the planet when oil/coal formed were substantially different from today. In particular, there are now various organisms which feed on the decaying matter that’s at the start of that process. These organisms eat that matter and emit CO2 as they live and breathe, returning the carbon to the air instead of burying underground.
Socialize losses, privatize gains. I don’t want my tax money incentivizing some rich asshole to buy an EV. Nobody that needs help buying a car can even consider an EV, their too expensive. The cheapest ev u can buy in USA is 30k, the cheapest ICE is 22k. And people that need help buying cars can’t afford either. Only middle class + people are buying these things, and they don’t need poor people’s tax money to subsidize their purchase from a private corp. I’m all for evs but let’s be honest the people buying them DONT need help buying them. Id rather see my tax money go toward renewable infrastructure or research on batteries and such! We can’t keep relying on the private industry to fund research, in technology or in medicine or any science imo. But that’s just my angry fist wagging opinion as somebody who refuses to spend more than 3k on a car because I’m not made of money. I’m not exactly poor, I’m a home owner under 30 and make around 60-70k a year depending on OT and bonuses. But if I went and got a loan on a Chevy bolt for 30k I would not be able to make my mortgage payments even with subsidies, so why should somebody who makes more get help buying a new car? Horseshit
There’s more reason to incentives than to “help people who can’t afford new”
EVs are inevitable, but we need to be encouraging a faster transition for environmental reasons. But the incentives were at least as much about trying to save legacy manufacturers as they were about encouraging consumers down that path.
Note that as soon as the US stopped incentives, legacy manufacturers withdrew from the EV market. Some were just reaching price parity, such as Chevy Equinox, but the few remaining choices will never have the volume to be profitable. Now they’re heavily protected, at the cost of less choice and much higher prices for all Americans, but that can’t last forever and they appear to be digging their own graves
While I agree with you, roll back of regulations has also contributed. For example the hemi was going to get killed but now their coming back, diesel emissions have lightened up, and epa no longer cares about the Greenhouse Gas Endangerment Finding and repealed it. There has been a LOT of factors this administration has changed that made EV less appealing and shifted us back to high pollution combustion and shitty refrigerants. I’m not convinced ev subsidies are the way forward, we need better renewable infrastructure to properly fuel our EVs and i think that should be funded by our tax dollars rather than hoping that if more people have evs more private corps will build the infrastructure for it. That’s like encouraging building trains without any tracks to ride on! Plus renewable infrastructure isn’t just for evs, that will help make all our homes greener too!
For sure, we can no longer afford the affects of our current technology and scale on the environment, especially with regard to climate change and where it impacts human health. EVs aren’t a goal in their own right, but as a much cleaner technology that lessens the impact, and we need a variety of pushes and pulls to encourage a faster transition, all of which the current administration is taking away.
While yes we need to build out infrastructure, and yes we would have preferred legacy manufacturers to survive the change, building out supply before there is demand doesn’t always work dry well. Using EV incentives help grow the market, drive demand, especially in the beginning where there is inadequate infrastructure and where manufacturers are not yet able to create comparable prices. It’s another lever to pull, and is important. Hopefully we had them long enough, but growth clearly stalled when they were prematurely ended
And yes, in my part of the US, windfarms killed by trump were important both to lower electricity costs and to clean up our impact.
This isn’t exactly correct or truthful. A new EV Bolt is only $4k more than a new Camry, and that difference is quickly made up from the gas saving, especially when gas is $4+ a gallon.
And when you want to accelerate adoption of something, you incentivize it. The US already spends $40+ billion in direct subsidies for oil (https://www.americanprogress.org/article/5-hidden-ways-the-government-rigs-the-market-in-favor-of-fossil-fuels/) Imagine instead of giving that to oil companies, you used that to accelerate the development of EV’s and their roll out.
A comparison of subsidized oil would better be served by having the government subsidize clean energy production and infrastructure. It’s not like the government is handing out subsidies to buy gas cars 🤷♂️
The government is doing that already (IRA law, although a lot of that was pulled back by the current administration). And like oil had, you would need continuous investment, which hasn’t happened, so a discounting program to incentivize purchasing seems like the best of both worlds. It seemed pretty effective as well at kicking off early adoption, which was then hampered by inflation, high prices, and government divesting from EV investment.
I mean… why not? I’d like if every rich guy had an EV instead of ICE. Less pollution is less pollution
They have the money to buy an EV, rich people don’t need my tax money to subsidize their purchase. If the EV is that much less appealing than an ice car, then the EV is not ready for market yet! Subsidizing their purchase of a quasi luxury barge that happens to be electric is just giving money to the elite class on both ends at the expense of the proletariat. Encourage the production of affordable, cheap even EVs and infrastructure not 50k+ leather wrapped battery packs on tires lol
“rich people” in your mind is who, exactly? Here in Canada only cars below a certain MSRP qualify for subsidies, so “luxury barges” are not subsidized. Also, a $50K car is not luxury anymore, have you seen car prices recently? New ICE cars are expensive as hell too!
I’m talking about people making into the 6 figures, they don’t need help from subsidies to buy cars. That’s just giving well to do people money to give to rich corpos 🤷♂️ but ur absolutely right all new cars are getting too damned expensive!
Depends where you live, 6 figures is the minimum in some places for single income earners let alone households. For example im working for a company that has a lot going on in Boston, the only way the math maths for me to live there, within 30 minutes commute is about 200k a year, budgeting about $600 a month for a car payment. And about 5-6k in mortgage. Plus utilities are insane so there goes another 500-600 a month. (Probably depends a bit on neighborhood, but thats what some of my coworkers were complaiming about) and food is about 50-60% more expensive my spouse covers that so not sure the cost, id guess for the 3 of us round about another 600-700 in groceries plus say another 200 or so for eating out, so yeah… 6 figures doesnt mean much in terms of real purchasing power the rest going into repairs for cars, home stuff thats inevitably broken in those 70+ yr old houses selling for over a mil. Thats the napkin math, exact math, and budgeting for things like PCs, savings, etc… not included.
But point being 6 figures doesnt mean well off depending on where that 6 figures is being made. Sure id live like a walking middle age crisis on 100K in the middle of nowhere, but middle of nowhere isnt going to be offering 100k
They do if you want to accelerate adoption. People who can afford to pay more have the same disincentives as you do. Why should they pay more? We know EVs are a huge improvement and worth it when the climate is considered, so need to encourage faster adoption.
Think of it more as exploiting them. Pay a little money for some rich assholeto spend more establishing the market for you. The biggest impediment to lower cost is scale: as long as legacy manufacturers can’t scale production they can’t lower prices enough to establish the market. Incentives are the way out
I’d recommend buying used over new. Before Iran war bolts were going for $12k
That’s still 4 times more than I have spent on my last 12 cars with exception of one crazy nice Audi I had that ran me 7500 lol. And I regret spending that much on a car, despite loving the 400hp fire breathing V8 under the hood. I honestly mainly drive motorcycles, which has been the cheapest way for me to reduce my carbon footprint. I get over 50 mpg on my cruiser and near 80 on my dual sport, and both my motorcycles + my Subaru + my jeep all cost less than one POS chevy bolt LOL. I understand I’m a special case because I work on my vehicles so it’s very cheap for me to own a beater, if I didnt have the ability to make all my own repairs and have shop cost on parts and stuff i might consider an EV more strongly but its just way too expensive for now even factoring in what i spend on fuel and repairs.
Seems like EV incentives would be a great help for a purchaser like you. As long as EVs are a niche product for the motivated few, there won’t be much of as used market. The fastest way to develop a healthy used market is higher growth for new cars, then wait a few years. Incentives goose the market for new, but also lay the groundwork for a larger used car market in a few years
I suppose ur right about that. Of all the things for me to complain about my tax money going to, EV incentives should be pretty low on the list lol.
Our tax money goes toward an almost infinite number of places and no one agrees with all of them, but speeding up the transition to a modern economy based on renewable energy, bringing both existing companies and customers along, should be a positive thing for most people.
For me, it’s right up there with feeding the starving, reducing poverty, public health, intervening in medical disasters, maintaining a solid safety net for all citizens
Where the heck do you live where you can get a car for 3-4k? Last car I bought was 10k for 130,000 miles on it and the one car I saw for 5k was high mileage, absolutely disgusting on the inside, and false advertised to the point that I could not trust it didn’t have major issues.
If you want a good car under 3 grand it takes elbow grease. My current Subaru I bought for 3k, I used the proceeds from my previous vehicle to purchase. My previous vehicle was a 800$ Xterra, blown radiator but ran. Did water pump, timing belt, radiator, thermostat, valve cover gaskets and a set of tires + ac high pressure line. That was just under a grand, so into for 1800ish and sold for 2800. Before that I had a e36 that I bought for 2500 bucks needed cooling system work as well, put like 600 bucks of parts in it and beat the fucking brakes off it clutch kicking and drifting all over creation from 140k -> 200k miles and sold for 2500. My 87 jeep was 1500 bucks with a cracked head on a 4.2 carbed amc engine because somebody left water in it over winter, 3 speed automatic. Got a 70k miles engine, 5 speed manual and transfer case out of an 02 for 800 bucks (pulled myself out of a rotted tj, brought over the PCM and wiring harness as well and merged harnesses) and stabbed that in. Had to fabricate my own transmission mount and skid plate for it and after a set of used 33s, winch, etc I’m into it for about 4k. All of these vehicles have been rot free, and purchased all in New England! If you ever want tips on finding a good cheap vehicle, and tips on how to make repairs feel free to reach out. Shits too expensive to gate keep knowledge these days, and the only way to cheap transport is to buy broken and put some sweat equity in. Of course I enjoy this shit so it’s easier for me to spend weekends bruising knuckles and hanging parts than somebody doing purely out of necessity! I have owned 6 motorcycles, only one of them cost me more than 1k. All were purchased as heaps and revived then sold for a mint. If your able bodied and broke you have nothing but opportunity just gotta dial a skill in and get after it!
I work on my own vehicles as well. I’m looking forward to my first oil change at 100k miles, lol. With gas at $4/gal and paying 14.48¢/kWh, I’m getting 107 mpg equivalent dollar for dollar not even hyper-mileing. As far as long term costs go, I’m expecting to get 250k miles out of my batteries and if the Bolt doesn’t last that long, I’ll repurpose the batteries into a whole home battery backup. Even then, if there’s a battery swap that becomes available to her a faster fast charge, I may turn my bolt’s battery pack into a home battery pack sooner. I’d much rather reuse what I got than recycle
Have you never heard of financing? I make $50,000 a year and bought a used EV. The only reason I was able to was because of rebates offered by IL-EPA. If not for the rebate, I’d still be driving an ICE vehicle and paying $50/wk on gasoline.
I have heard of financing. My buddy is currently on his way to paying 32k for a 15k car lmfao. The bank already owns my house, they don’t need to own my transportation too. I spend 40 or so a week on gas during the winter, but in the summer I ride motorcycles every day so my fuel cost is 12-20 a week for 8 or so months of the year! No car payment is going to be cheaper than the transport I own cash right now, simple as that. I have too many bills and shits too expensive to incur another monthly payment!
That might be the worst financing option I’ve heard in my life. 4000 down on a 15,000 loan would end up being about 12800 total on 5 years at 6%